Curse

Lusciious · Jan 20, 2010, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Now we've someone who claims FD's damage output is hardly large . So should i believe him ? o.o

But if you read the previous posts, you would realise that there aren't many elite mes skills that isn't related to interrupts . interrupts in HM just don't work . degens would be countered by their really good regen .

The Josip · Jan 20, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

And the rest of us said that FD's damage is large?

Lusciious · Jan 20, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

FD damage is large then xD

The Josip · Jan 20, 2010, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Question mark

Lusciious · Jan 20, 2010, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Lol xD anyway, so yeah . like mentioned earlier . i will try a FD build and a AP build after i get LS .

Verene · Jan 20, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I'm not really a fan of FD, personally. But I don't like playing defensive builds, and I don't run builds (myself nor on my heroes) that are very condition-heavy, so it's pretty useless for me. I'm also not a fan of AP builds.

I use my own variation on the LA variation of that build, and I like it well enough. It's certainly more flexible in terms of what sort of team build you can have than the other two.

The Josip · Jan 20, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

No its not more flexible in terms of TEAM build than the other two, because LA offers absolutely nothing to the team over AP or FD. And if youre taking LA so that you can use 2nd profession skills, that team is probably better off taking that 2nd profession anyway. In any case I prefer to talk about actual builds than highly hypothetical builds that exist only for forum debates but dont work in practice.

Yes I used LA a lot, with illusion skills, for fun, but theres nothing flexible about that - im still locked to one skillbar, which is inferior to AP anyway in what it does. LA isnt signet of illusion; you cant do any special and unique things with LA that you cant do better with AP or FD.

If your team needs damage, you go with AP
If your team needs damage mitigation / support, you go with FD or AP

If your team needs anticaster backup, you go with AP and a bit with FD
If your team needs antimelee backup you go with FD and a bit with AP

Signet of Illusions is more flexible than LA, but you can only take 7 other skills with it, and these skills will be inferior to AP or FD skllbar.

Of course, who just wants to have fun can also take Keystone Signet, but we dont debate individual fun here

Chthon · Jan 20, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Now we've someone who claims FD's damage output is hardly large . So should i believe him ? o.o

"Large" damage output is relative.

It's "large" compared to a lot of mesmer builds (since most of those builds are junk). It's probably "large" compared to the junk build that started this thread.

It's not "large" compared to AP-Sinspam under most realistic conditions. It's not "large" compared to pre-nerf AP-AE-CoP. It's not "large" compared to what many other classes (warrior, sin, necro, ritualist) could do in the same party slot.

Which basically brings me round to my point from earlier, FD's damage output is not high enough to justify a party slot on that basis; its damage prevention/mitigation ability can be. (And EC trades away damage for added shutdown reliability as compared to FD.)

Also, you should generally trust Xeno's posts. He's usually right.

The Drunkard · Jan 20, 2010, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The damage is hardly large.
The pressure it puts out is reasonable but you're not likely going to kill anything by yourself.

I said it dealt large damage packets. Doing 17 damage, FD with six conditions (and one ending) producing 119 damage for any foe within FD's range. Yeah, that's not a lot of damage compared to AP, but keep in mind that you can blind/dazespam a mob and that there's plenty of other conditions that your teammates can apply. It's not a build that's going to show up in SCs, it's something that works in vanquishing aside from the AP bars.

Xenomortis · Jan 20, 2010, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I said it dealt large damage packets. Doing 17 damage, FD with six conditions (and one ending) producing 119 damage for any foe within FD's range.

Each 17 damage counts as its own packet. That's small. The biggest single packet is from Finish Him.
Even if you pack CoP, the damage you do isn't truly significant. It isn't ignorable and it will take a little while for you to bring down a HM enemy single-handedly.

FD bars do put out a surprising amount of pressure though (you certainly attract the attention of enemy healers) and you effectively neuter mobs. I'm not arguing that the build isn't strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(And EC trades away damage for added shutdown reliability as compared to FD.)

Sans Dazed, which is why EC is strictly inferior to FD in my view. You can bring Technobabble, but then you've just lost a PvE slot to achieve what FD does anyway.
It's more reliable to an extent. That is, you can use it on whoever you want when needed. But if you've stacked conditions on one target, you run the risk of it dying prematurely (especially with FH).

The Josip · Jan 20, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I wouldn't use Technobabble with FD. The bar is crowded as is, and Technobabble just doesn't fit in since FD does some daze too. I love daze on AP bar though, which is why I said: as anti-caster I'd go with AP+Technobabble (by AP I mean entire set, which includes Arcane Echo), while FD is more anti-melee oriented with YMLD+AshBlast combo, which alone is quite powerful in appropriate areas.

Xenomortis · Jan 21, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I wouldn't use Technobabble with FD. The bar is crowded as is, and Technobabble just doesn't fit in since FD does some daze too. I love daze on AP bar though, which is why I said: as anti-caster I'd go with AP+Technobabble (by AP I mean entire set, which includes Arcane Echo), while FD is more anti-melee oriented with YMLD+AshBlast combo, which alone is quite powerful in appropriate areas.

...
Re-read my post. I meant with EC, not FD.

The Josip · Jan 21, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I know what you said, I didn't disagree, just used it to elaborate something I wrote before.

Lusciious · Jan 21, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

So Xeno, from what you've said, FD pressures reasonably well enough . Tonnes of small damage packets which is better IMO . Is big damage packets good ? o.o

But anyway, aside from all that debating . You haven't mentioned any elites to use other than AP . So in other words, 1) AP 2) FD ..... ?

Or is there something which is stronger than FD ?

whats EC anyway ? o.o Enchanter's conundrum ? Echo ?

Chthon · Jan 21, 2010, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I'm not arguing that the build isn't strong.

This. It's a very strong build. It just happens to be a very strong defensive build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

whats EC anyway ? o.o Enchanter's conundrum ? Echo ?

Extend Conditions. For a long time it was a garbage skill. Then it got buffed to become a strictly superior alternative to FD. Now that FD's been really, really buffed too, it's a generally weaker alternative to FD, that you might consider in some situations where 100% condition uptime really matters to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Sans Dazed, which is why EC is strictly inferior to FD in my view. You can bring Technobabble, but then you've just lost a PvE slot to achieve what FD does anyway.

The advantage to EC+Technobabble is that you can string the dazed out long enough for Technobabble to recharge. It's 100% uptime if you concentrate on it. Moreover, it's EASY 100% uptime if you party with a BHA ranger (waves to Zho). By comparison, to get 100% uptime with FD you'd need a new condition every 3 sec, and you'd need the target to survive long enough to get FD on the next target, and both of those are unlikely.

The flip side is that FD is probably toggling dazed on and off quickly, stacking up a lot more Frag damage. That's true with other conditions too -- EC is going to stretch them out so long that you're probably not going to get more than 1 Frag trigger.

Which is better? Depends. If you really, really want the 100% uptime on dazed, you've got to use EC. Otherwise, I'd agree that FD is probably better in most situations.

Quote:

It's more reliable to an extent. That is, you can use it on whoever you want when needed. But if you've stacked conditions on one target, you run the risk of it dying prematurely (especially with FH).

I tend to find that I'm more likely to have a FD target die before I can finish the condition stack and have to wait out FD's recharge to get that condition in play than to be too slow with EC. Unlike FD, failing to get a condition stacked before you need to hit EC doesn't cost you anything -- you just put the condition on the next target and EC it from there.

You're right about FH though. I don't even try to use it with EC. Unless your Norn rank is like 2, FH is probably going to kill the target.

Lusciious · Jan 21, 2010, 08:58 AM // 08:58

What's FH now ? o.o

zelgadissan · Jan 21, 2010, 09:01 AM // 09:01

FH = Finish Him!

Lusciious · Jan 21, 2010, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Wait so what were we debating about again ?

I just saw a fragility spiker on YouTube . What do you think of that ? I think you can find it by typing guildwars fragility spiker . It's in a pvp match .